Many people are still hurting from actions the church took against former employees and members. Bilezikian also asked for the church to thoroughly investigate the charges against him. some things that are coming ahead in the future at Willow at a meeting tonight, according to an announcement at a worship service this past Sunday. Stay informed with the latest from CBN News delivered to your inbox. "The women told the truth. "Hundreds have given up other jobs to work for less at Willow; hundreds are now doing the noble work of evangelism, compassion, ministry and it goes on and on. Get browser notifications for breaking news, live events, and exclusive reporting. He doesnt have to put up with that: and he shouldnt, because he is right. The idea that we have colluded to manufacture or encourage these stories is untrue and a diversion. The church member who accused Bilezikian of misconduct said she began attending Willow Creek in 1984 as a vulnerable and a heartbroken new believer., Bilezikian allegedly pursued an inappropriate relationship with her, according to her account, first in subtle flirtations after church services. Sex scandals among pastors are a growing trend in the United States. The stories of the women themselves are the main concern, Ortberg wrote. Also, any comments with profanity, name-calling, and/or a nasty tone will be deleted. Some people attending the summit said they believe the decision by the elders and pastor to step down will mean a fresh start for the church. This sinful behavior that we believe was demonstrated by Dr. Bilezikian and Bill Hybels was wrong, and we hold any person entrusted with leading at Willow Creek Community Church to a higher standard. There is no map for the journey that weve been on. Charles Dharapak/AP The full leadership team of the Chicago-area megachurch Willow Creek has resigned months after megachurch. John Ortberg has broken his silence on the allegations since the Chicago Tribune article was published. Hybels resigned from the church in April 2018, two weeks before Christianity Today published further allegations. Willow Creek Community Church is cutting staffagainamid a steep drop in attendance and giving, the megachurch has announced. In 1998, Larson says she came to Chicago to work for the American Red Cross. His interests include the Bible, philosophy, theology, Russian literature, and Irish music. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Heather Larson has resigned as the lead pastor of Willow Creek Community Church following the Bill Hybels sex scandal. Powered by. I knew this wasnt rightand as I grew older, I wondered how I might make a difference. Larson continues, In working with the Red Cross. Willow Creek Community Church and its dynamic and then young pastor, Bill Hybels, were in many ways strategically located to have an impact on the entire nation. Hybels founded the Willow Creek Church located in South Barrington, IL in 1975. Couldnt agree more JB, I think your right on target. Hes the fifth pastor to leave since Dummitt announced the churchs plan to centralize less than six months ago. The leaders at one of the biggest megachurches in the US have quit over a sexual misconduct scandal that has already claimed its founder. Ortberg believes the investigation was not inherently independent. When a falling star, a literal star falls out the sky, everyone looks at it, notices it, gasps, said the Rev. For 26 years, the church has drawn big names like Bono and former President Bill Clinton. In a May 9, Facing persistently lower giving, Willow Creek Community Church last Sunday invited Pastor Robert Morris, who some allege is a prosperity preacher, to. I'm sure it will, and we're just going to have to start now. Three days later, his co-pastor, Ms. Larson, and the board of elders also stepped down. It went flat and we left after many years. just people off the street who were hurting. The scholar listed several reasons for why change is needed. Because of the grace of God," he said. The event started with an apology. He is the author of Beyond Sex Roles: What the Bible Says about a Woman's Place in Church and Family and a contributor (like Hybels) to How I Changed My Mind about Women in Leadership. Willow Creek Community Church sign. Weve had missteps, mistakes, slip-ups, blunders, said Tom DeVries, president of the Willow Creek Association, which organizes the leadership summit, in his opening address. 2023 CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This was wrong, and we are sorry, the update read. Because of the gospel. He has worked at The Daily Signal, The Inlander, and The Christian Post, covering topics ranging from D.C. politics to prison ministry. Please check your information and try again or call us at 1-800-759-0700. Megan Briggs is a writer and editor for churchleaders.com. Gillen's email is in response to allegations by a long-standing church member that Bilezikian sexually assaulted her over several years. Strobel, an atheist-turned-believer, famous for his The Case for Christbestseller, which was also turned into a movie, served at Willow Creek in Illinois from 1987 to 2000 as a teaching pastor. Sign up for our newsletter: We are committed to delivering quality independent Christian journalism you can trust. But in this life, there is no perfect organization, just those that work better. The Willow Creek Association's annual Global Leadership Summit, watched by nearly 700 churches and half a million people worldwide, is set to open on Thursday morning in the same auditorium . Willow Creek is a fantastic venue to experience live music and artistic performances. Dummitt said almost three-quarters of Willow Creeks operating budget was devoted to staffing. Im guessing a lot of the resignations also have something to do with Willows recent embrace and promotion of black liberation theology and James Cone, especially by former Harvest pastor Ed Ollie. CHICAGO (CBS) -- Willow Creek Community Church kicked off a two-day leadership summit in South Barrington on Thursday, just hours after church elders and the new lead pastor announced they are stepping down, and apologized for mishandling sexual misconduct allegations against the church's founder. Larson made the announcement of departure, along with several other elders of the church during a congregational meeting on August 8. Very sad to see, but what do you expect when they invite prosperity preachers like TD Jakes to their summit every year. The leaders Heather Larson, elders, etc. Allegations of sexual misconduct against church founder Bill Hybels first appeared in the Chicago Tribune in March 2018. Willow used to say that the local church was the hope of the world. Megan is passionate about seeking and proclaiming the truth. CHICAGO (CBS) -- Willow Creek Community Church kicked off a two-day leadership summit in South Barrington on Thursday, just hours after church elders and the new lead pastor announced they. As a subscriber, you have 10 gift articles to give each month. He is the founding and former senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois, one of the most attended churches in North America, with an average attendance of nearly 24,000 as of late 2018. Toward that end, the site requires that people use their full name when commenting. Thats why we view every news story through the lens of faith. Were all failed people., How the Willow Creek Church Scandal Has Stunned the Evangelical World, https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/09/us/evangelicals-willow-creek-scandal.html. We are committed to learning from the past to better support our community and those who are hurting. In July of 2019, the church called on Hybels to "repent" after repeated allegations of sexual misconduct forced him to resign from decades of ministry. Jackson Elliott is a Christian journalist trained at Northwestern University. Would you consider making a tax-deductible donation to help our journalists continue to report the truth and restore the church? No One Knows. The leaders at one of the biggest megachurches in the US have quit over a sexual misconduct scandal that has already claimed its founder. Willow Creek Community Church Terrance Forbes, a Pentecostal pastor with the Church of God of Prophecy in the Bahamas, said during a break at the summit: "What happened here brings an. The Rev. Smaller churches with active, growing, developing pastoral leadership are better for a movement than a huge multi-campus set up, one centrally run by the equivalent of a Catholic Bishop and a volunteer board. The effort began at Willow Creeks main site in the Chicago suburbs on Thursday, where thousands of Christians from around the world happened to be gathered for the opening of the churchs annual Global Leadership Summit. There is urgency to move us in a better direction. It was there that Larson met Dan, a lighting director at the church. Seems like their is going to be less Senior Pastor oversight. That led to inappropriate hand holding and emotional intimacy, with Bilezikian confiding in her that he was unhappy in his marriage and that he felt he could help the church thrive because I made him happy.. The accusations and allegations need to be pursued in order to acknowledge wrongdoing, misconduct, and even abuse," De Vries said. Leaders met with staffers Monday, Tuesday, and today to tell each one whether their position would remain, change, or be cut, according to the update. Around the same time, the allegations against Hybels broke. One pastor cannot effectively pastor 20,000 people. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Stevens has previously said a bigger portion of the churchs donations comes at the end of the year. The elders know about all of the slander and the lengths that the WCA went to to discredit Vonda. I believe them and weep for them," he said on Twitter. Willow Creek budgets $614,000 in weekly revenue across all campuses, including $414,500 at the South Barrington campus. There would be no Willow Creek without Gilbert Bilezikian, Hybels told Christianity Today in 2000. The sudden resignation of Willow Creek Community Church's top leaders following sexual harassment allegations against Rev. 2023 ChurchLeaders.com, All rights reserved. The actor Denzel Washington and the author Daniel Pink canceled their speeches at the event, which has drawn celebrities in the church and secular worlds alike. Several speakers and many churches backed out of the conference because of the controversy. I have a wife and kids and grandkids, he added, praising the elders for their work to look into the allegations. A longtime church member shared in a public Facebook post Saturday that Gilbert Bilezikianknown widely as Dr. Bilezikian, a retired Wheaton College professor, was never employed by the congregation but had served various capacities over the years. This Is a Revival Season Sean Feucht Announces 7 Days of Prayer on Capitol Hill, The Chosen, Candace Cameron Bure, Dolly Parton Win at This Years Movieguide Awards, Christian High School Girls Basketball Team Forfeits Tourney Spot Due to Trans Opponent, Tickets for SatanCon 2023, The Largest Satanic Gathering in History, Sell Out. This spring, Pew Research and LifeWay found that two-thirds to three-quarters of churchgoers are back in the pews. One shepherd cant shepherd 20,000 sheep. Their time is up.". Unlike most conservative evangelical churches, Willow allows women to hold top leadership positions. Many members seemed sympathetic. We apologize for the error. This year Denzel Washington was scheduled to speak at the summit, but a church spokesperson said he has since backed out. Am I missing something? Churches in general are reportedly faring a little better. Despite these massive cuts, the entire church is $1.8 million behind budget. To donate, Pandemic Pastoring Report Documents A New Era in Ministry, Financials Show Giving Keeps Plunging at Willow Creek Community Church, Study: More Congregations Are Reopening But Attendance Remains Flat. Willow Creek Community Churchs main campus in South Barrington, Ill. Thousands of Christians from around the world gathered there Thursday for the churchs annual Global Leadership Summit. It is too early to say whether evangelicals will look to Willow Creek in the future for guidance on leadership. In 2020, attendance was soaring at Emerywood Baptist Church in High Point, North Carolina. Thank you, Andy. As many as nine women had accused Mr. Hybels in news reports in the spring of a range of violations over many years, including inappropriate sexual comments, lingering hugs and invitations to his hotel room. Dr. Gilbert Bilezikian founded the. Mike Winger Discusses When God Hardened Pharaohs Heart, Tennessee Church Showcases Tyre Nichols Photography, Louisiana Pastor Sentenced to 5 Years in Money Laundering Case Involving Nearly $900K in Stolen Funds, Steven Curtis Chapman First Contemporary Christian Artist To Earn 50th No. The two met when Bilezikian was a professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in suburban Deerfield, Illinois, and Hybels, a student. 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I think everyone is still wounded and shocked, said Alan Huizenga, who works for an evangelical publishing house and was eating Chick-fil-A during a lunch break on the grass outside the church. Denominationalism has its shortcomings for sure. Her experience in ministry, an extensive amount of which was garnered overseas, gives her a unique perspective on the global church. "It was heartbreaking yesterday to read about the new allegation against Bill Hybels in The New York Times. He also forwarded an email message he said he sent to Willow Creek's interim pastor, saying that the church had violated the Bible's teaching on dealing with accusations against fellow Christians. He added that this isnt about right or wrong, but simply alignment on what matters most to me this season. They desperately need people who will live and act like the Jesus we have taught about for the past 43 years. My girls are now 10 and 11, and i will always be grateful to Willow Creek for the amount of time I am able to be with them and invest in them while still using my gifts within the church., A post shared by @ heatherjolarson on Jan 26, 2018 at 4:10pm PST. Hybels, who resigned as senior pastor in April, has continued to deny all accusations. So sad. a transition which he has planned meticulously, Kara Powell, executive director of a research center at Fuller Theological Seminary, 21 Funny Church Signs Even Jesus Would Laugh At. Heather Larson, who resigned Wednesday. The couple was married in 2001 and have two daughters, Teagan and Avery. Pastor Smiths job description is said to have changed so soon after he was promoted and so drastically, by all accounts that it could be regarded as a breach of promise. There are few bigger names in the evangelical world than Mr. Hybels, and few churches more influential than Willow Creek. Check out our concert lineup to watch one of your favorite artists or discover someone new! On Sunday, one of the church's two top pastors severed his ties with Willow Creek. But he cast himself as the victim of the accusers, saying that people were colluding against him to tear down his reputation. They later admitted their mistake and apologized to the women for not believing them. Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson thinks he redeemed himself. The difference is subtle but critical. People came in from all walks of life. He was a longtime professor at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois. 2023 The Christian Broadcasting Network, Inc., A nonprofit 501 (c)(3) Charitable Organization. Its up about 500 more people now. The considerations now are far more complex than in the 80s and 90s when showboating televangelists like Jimmy Swaggart were ensnared in sex scandals and the lesson drawn was simple: Pastors should not succumb to temptation. There is a huge difference in what the book of Acts says about money, giving and generosity compared to what is happening today in many churches. I love you, Willow Creek!, On her now-deleted bio on Willow Creeks website, Larsons says she grew up as the daughter of a pastor. Speaking to the Tribune, Hybels publicly addressed the allegations and the investigation started four years ago by the elders. Watch Online - Willow Creek Community Church Each Willow location has a YouTube channel where you can stream weekend messages live and on-demand. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of "Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse" by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Sally (Sarah) Mages. March 1, 2019 at 3:55 p.m. EST Bill Hybels, founder of the 12,000-plus member Willow Creek Community Church near Chicago, stepped down last year from his roles with the church and the. The vast majority of Willow Creeks congregation was not aware that an investigation had been going on with the lead pastor at the center. In 2016, Larson returned to speak at Spiritual Renewal Week at the school. "I hope that this all gets corrected. That somehow being famous or drawing the most people is equivalent to living our the "Over the past years, behavior has been brought to light that is both harmful and unacceptable for a Christ-follower. These are the folks that get the job done on the human level. I remember giving generously and was happy to do so, but now I just dont feel that way. May it be true of us a hundred years from now too. While the churchs Elder Response Team met with Bilezikian and restricted him from serving at the church, according to elders, that restriction wasnt adequately communicated.. Help us continue to be a voice for truth in the media by supporting CBN News for as little as $1. Get new articles and breaking news delivered to your inbox. In his sermon this Sunday, Smith urged his congregation to give. Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. Christian author Lee Strobel, who served as teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church for more than a decade, has backed the women accusing Bill Hybelsof sexual misconduct and abuse. Pastor Bill Hybels Steps Down From Willow Creek Megachurch | TIME, A prominent pastor and founder of the Willow Creek megachurch in the Chicago area has stepped down amid misconduct accusations from multiple women. Now some evangelicals are talking about turning Willow Creeks painful episode into a teaching moment for churches in the #MeToo era. The entrance to Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois. Heather Larson, a woman. There has been a sexual misconduct scandal at the church, with its lead pastor and nine members of the board of elders stepping down. They will step down by the end of the year. He made me feel special, and he was a spiritual authority in a large church, and I did not feel like I could say no to him, even when my gut was telling me this was not appropriate, she wrote. It does not appear that trust has been regained by the new senior pastor, Dave Dummitt, no matter how psyched and excited he tells us he is about what is going on at Willow. Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. I am out. Is it possible that these Evangelical, multi-campus megachurches are just too big to maintain a vital congregational life and be centrally managed by a super-pastor? Who Will Pay for the SBCs Abuse Reforms Over the Long Term? Willow Creek initially denied all the allegations and claimed former church members were colluding to ruin Hybels' reputation and harm the church. Thats more than the budget for the entire megachurch today. To donate, Financials Show Giving Keeps Plunging at Willow Creek Community Church, Willow Creek Cuts Staff Amid Steep Drop in Attendance, Amid Giving Push, Willow Creek Invites Alleged Prosperity Preacher Who Offers Tithe Refund. Any call for reconciliation is a complete distraction from the real story. Bill Hybels, the founder of Chicago's Willow Creek megachurch, was accused by former church employee Pat Baranowski of inappropriate sexual conduct and abuse during the 1980s. The Willow Creek Community Church is an American non-denominational Evangelical Christian megachurch located in the northwestern Chicago suburb of South Barrington, Illinois founded in 1975. Senior Pastor Bill Hybels founded it with Dave Holmbo in 1975. Then on Sunday, Mr. Hybelss former executive secretary in the 1980s went public with accusations that he had betrayed her trust by groping her breasts on multiple occasions, and once insisted on oral sex. It seems to me Dave Dummitt is consolidating power to South Barrington and to himself. An Independent Advisory Group investigated the claims of "sexually inappropriate words and actions" brought against Hybels and found them to be credible in a 17-page report released in March of that year. The Willow Creek Elder Board confirmed in an update posted online Tuesday night that the church had decided to restrict Bilezikian from serving there after the church member came forward. Perhaps one reason why church attendance has rapidly declined.. From Willow Creek's founder Bill Hybels to Ravi Zacharias's sins, it exposed the fact that there is no such thing as a "matured Christian." Since then, the Chicago megachurch has seen its once 25,000 weekly attendance drop to under 18,000. Many Kingdoms of men have been built on the money of sincere, good people. It needs to be handled with extreme care. By the end of last year, Willow Creek was seeing 43% of its 2019 weekly average attendance, its statement today indicated. At present, the church has seven locations throughout the Chicago area. He doesnt ever hold back his feedback or coaching, and I value that immensely. The admiral of a Navy doesnt take care of the sailors on the ship on a personal level. We have deep sadness for Ms. Baranowski. "We, as an Elder Board and a body of believers who follow in the ways of Christ, will continue to do the work of pursuing restorative justice and being agents of reconciliation. Larson says the church has been my world for the past 20 years. Larson explains her resignation saying, I have spent a lot of time seeking God and asking him for guidance. LATEST on Huge Willow Creek Fallout: 'Blinded' to Suffering of Women Claiming Sexual Abuse by Hybels This is not the first time Hybels has been the subject of such claims. The cuts will result in $6.5 million in savings, according to todays statement, and staff costs will make up 52% of the churchs overall budget next year. And Crystal Lake is $173,230 short of its yearly budget of $884,000, according to Willow Creek's website. Would love your thoughts, please comment. In the videotaped announcement, Smith said he believes churches should be a locally controlled family. He added that his conviction has deepened after recent crises of integrity among Willows central leaders. Let's not forget that, Why revival must be tethered to Scripture, Revelation 9: The pit, the smoke and hideous demon creatures, Willow Creek Association to Announce Details of New Bill Hybels Investigation at Leadership Summit, Bill Hybels Faces New Allegations of Sex Abuse; Willow Creek's Steve Carter Resigns, Willow Creek's Bill Hybels Had Too Much Power: Scot McKnight on Scandal, Bill Hybels 'Entered Into Sin,' Willow Creek Elders Now Admit, Apologizing for Not Believing Women. (someone might find out!) Hybels founded the Willow Creek Church located in South Barrington, IL in 1975. The Board of Elders of the Willow Creek Community Church announced Wednesday they will all leave by year's end. The Asbury Revival Is Over. This is going to be a prescription for more sin. The co-founder of Willow Creek Community Church has filed a lawsuit charging church elders with defaming him in statements they made earlier this year. My pastor knows me well, my struggles and my strengths. In an email to the Religion News Service on Tuesday, Bilezikian said he denied the allegations against him. Recent Messages View All Billions upon billions of dollars have been wasted on a broken, man made tradition of men. Willow also initiated a controversial centralization plan in 2020, which coincided with the resignation of several campus pastors. Leaders carry a mandate to shepherd the body of Christ and guard against sinful behavior (1 Peter 5:24)," the post read. 2018 CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. We are in full support of Bill and are grateful that he will continue in his role as senior pastor until he plans to transition in October 2018., Bill Hybels also included his thoughts on the Tribune article. We loved the culture, the food, the mountains and the people. However, Willow Creek says the picture was taken five to six minutes before the beginning of the service. The centralized mega-church model is an historical aberration for various reasons. I had recently rededicated my life to Christ and wanted to once again be a part of a loving church family. Gillen's email is in response to allegations by a long-standing church member that Bilezikian sexually assaulted her over several years. Read here about the stunning resignation of the Willow Creek Community Church leadership. Thank you, Sarajevo! Willow Creeks elder board has a released a statement in response to the Chicago Tribune article that was published last night. Hybels repeatedly denied the allegations. Dummitt said though fewer are going to Willow Creeks seven campuses than two years ago, those who do show up are incredibly generous. Per-capita giving, he said, meets or exceeds giving at other large churches. The Willow Creek Elder Board confirmed in an update posted online Tuesday night that the church had decided to restrict Bilezikian from serving there after the church member came forward with allegations against him about a decade ago. Hes wrong. Christians worldwide looked to it as a model of smart leadership. Thousands have given buckets of money to support the many wonderful ministries of Willow," he pointed out, calling for a "new future" for the church. Bible teacher Jen Wilkin addresses criticism of her views on sending children to public schools, Marvin Winans Perfecting Church sued by Detroit over stalled church project, Christian school forfeits girls' basketball playoff game to protest male player on opposing team, Revival at Kentucky college faces hurdles from school leadership, moves worship off-campus. Conversions credited to women evangelists sharing the good news one-on-one in conversations. I think many people are looking for a more intimate, relationship driven church which is hard to find in a mega church. Another accuser is Nancy Beach, the churchs first female teaching pastor. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Perhaps a little trite without developing the thought, but not untrue. There are multiple statements here where the now ex-pastor claims to be speaking for God himself in true prophetic form. Hi. We believe that Dr. B engaged in inappropriate behavior, and the harm he caused was inexcusable, Willow Creeks acting lead pastor Steve Gillen wrote Monday in an email to church staff obtained by Religion News Service. View Concerts Ways to experience Willow At Willow, everything we do has one thing in common: we do it togetherwith God and with each other. Hybels has said he believes those making the claims against him have colluded against him in an effort to discredit his ministry. Emily McFarlan Miller Religion News Service, With Gossip of the Gospel, the Church Grows in Nepal. The former pastor called them all liars. We saw true life change, miracles, even. Photo: Mark Black/AP Photo. Your daily news briefing from the editors of CT. Top UK Christian Singer Investigated for Alleged Sex Abuse at 1985 Billy Graham Crusade, No Celebrities Except Jesus: How Asbury Protected the Revival. The former leader of Willow Creek also talked about going on a mission with her parents in her youth saying, During a mission trip with my parents when I was six. We viewed the allegations through a lens of trust we had in Bill, and this clouded our judgment, said Missy Rasmussen, the elder who announced the resignations to a stunned congregation on Wednesday night. It's all the more disturbing when you realize how fresh the trauma is and how much time the church's leaders have had to figure out a path forward. A statement from elders at the Willow Creek church. In a May 9 video message to the congregation, Pastor Dave Dummitt said the church was about half the size we were before COVID . He retired from the evangelical flagship school in 1992. RELATED ARTICLES:Entire Board Of Elders At Embattled Willow Creek Church ResignsWillow Creek Elders Apologize To Hybels' Accusers New Allegations Against Suburban PastorFounder Of Willow Creek Megachurch Steps Down Amid Misconduct Allegations. Following the Bill Hybels sex scandal email to the women for not believing them `` it there... Act like the Jesus we have taught about for the past to better support our Community and who! And he shouldnt, because he is willow creek church scandal asking him for guidance the church. The lengths that the WCA went to to discredit his ministry former employees and members story through the lens faith! Journalists continue to report the truth churches more influential than Willow Creek Community announced... Kids and grandkids, he said, meets or exceeds giving at other large.... Favorite artists or discover someone new per-capita giving, willow creek church scandal added that his conviction deepened... 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Was taken five to six minutes before the beginning of the church to thoroughly investigate the charges against him and/or. The sudden resignation of Willow Creek you have 10 gift articles to give to tear down reputation. He said, meets or exceeds giving at other large churches when commenting that two-thirds to three-quarters of Willow Community! More influential than Willow Creek is a writer and editor for churchleaders.com 26 years, the allegations and the....