Yes WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. so much pretense. Leventhal doesnt seem very interested in this whole thing Wagner appears attentive during Leventhals speech but Leventhal seems stand-offish toward Wagner. Our Staff Team serves, equips, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the glory of our King. If by community you mean meeting with like-minded individuals to foster friendships & develop relationships then great. He is a gifted teacher and speaker and could have made so much more money over the years with the opportunities he was given, but he didnt take them. Secondly he says that even Jesus himself said things that might be considered cultish: If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26. what is lavish? That church is huge and has 2 campuses (at least) so I find it hard to believe you even know these elders yourself. I am a former Watermark member. Watermark Church is a popular, non-denominational church in the Dallas area which has about 11,000 members. Ive been freed for nearly 10 yrs now with cigarettes, alcohol snd sex until wife had been given, Author: this is unequivocally WRONG. Wagner blatantly blasphemed Holy Scripture, hence your whitewash of content and material issues. I think you may have missed a decimal point according to the link in the post his house (verified to be the correct Todd Wagner) was a little over $1.5 million as of 2019. John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander.7 This is a quality and important post. Im sorry to hear of judgement that has been passed around. It looks as if an elder finally stood up and refused to be silenced. Ill meet you. Per Todd Wagner I was not the right person or the right fit or whatever he thought. If you arent a covenant member at Watermark Church, you cant join a community group, and that is where all the getting involved starts. seems pretty far-fetched to me, but sure makes for a great explanation and a great story (if youre not Todd or the supposed wealthy person, this is what you were told). And then they agree to work on the same board? Its all based on financial packages and NDAs now. Wagner has always surrounded himself with yes men. Take Your Power Back we all know many invested their heart and lives into this place, only to be punished and abused when their performance was not up to the public image WM wanted society to perceive of their organization. its all relative the woman in the mumbai slum may see the person in Dallas who rents a room as having luxuries, who sees the person living in their own apartment as having luxuries. I think one can probably make a case for it using Scripture, but I think Elder-Rule ignores the Scriptural precedence of independent accountability: In terms of two doctrinal statements, what this does is set up an inner ring of people who more closely align with the beliefs of the church (and by church, I mean elders). that the elder board was ready to go in Todds leadership direction. However, if you have any experience with these covenants or have heard stories of people who have dealt with a church where they signed one of these and there was a point of contention or disagreement, you know that these are LEGALLY binding agreements and can be used against you (re: current The Village Church lawsuit& the Karen Hinkley story.). What Happens Now? I have however heard Todd Wagner say from the pulpit if youre not comfortable giving here thats ok, please give somewhere meaningful to you. the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Hello, Scottie. Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. He hides behind the church to bully people whether in the church or outside. You are correct. Below are screenshots of their membership covenant. | Grace Community Church. I was wrong and truly apologize. to the woman in mumbai who lives with her family in a sheet metal lean-to in a slum and keeps it spic and span, tidy, and as homey as possible (a hero in my mind), lavish would be a walls and a roof of some kind. Sure Todd is challenged this season, but remember Lord is still in control. obey your leaders? This church sounds exhausting and prideful. One of the core values of the community groups is Live Authentically, which they define as being completely honest with one anotherthis means giving others permission to know the real you by sharing authentically. This includes sharing your sins, struggles, along with your entire life story, potentially to a room full of complete strangers. Religious Organization. I have NEVER been asked to, let alone forced, to disclose financial information. I was blessed to attend Kanakuk for years and years. or. Speculation, in this context, equates to gossip, and at its heart, is pride. Sounds like something Whoopie Goldburg would say. In some ways this reminds me of the CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace debacle. The Roys Report seeks to foster thoughtful and respectful dialogue. He comes back, preaches, and the elder board is moving forward with reinstating him and Leventhal has qualms about it. He is a restorer and a life giver, even as we ALL come to him seeking forgiveness. It is Lord that gives and takes it away. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. He confirmed Leventhals statement that the two are at peace and are in community together.. The over-humility seems fake, like false humility. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Wow. Thats the problem often times one comes on a hot seat and forgets one day would come that same thing that man have to face. You are experienced and know your Bible and subject. He counseled my former fiance and after several meetings with him my fiance broke up the engagement and I was left devastated. Where appropriate, upon request,. It was a class before the main church service where people around the same age as you sat in a room, listened to a bible lesson, maybe interacted a bit, shared prayer requests, took up a small offering, held hands and said a closing prayer. This podcast is a production of Watermark Community Church in Dallas, Texas, USA. That house was indeed given to Todd Wagner by a member of his early congregation, whose name has not been disclosed. It appears to attract a fairly high income crowd if their building program is any indication of the amount of money coming into the church. Spiritual authority is the result of Gods power shown through spiritual gifts and deep experiences with God. Wow. . Since November, it appears two other Watermark elders have left the original board of six menBrian Buchek and Beaut Fournet. Then check your heart. This piece has been updated. It took a tremendous amount of courage for this person to come forward and tell their story, for fear of reactions like yours. I worked at a mega church where homes were gifted to the church, then sold and the $$ put back into the church account. I have no comment on the Cabo thing; but I will say, the church was opened to anyone and anyone during the snowstorm, event the kids playhouse for children to play. Some of the most notable settlements are described below. It was meant to jerk everyones chain. If the answer or NONE then you need to look at your own lives and see if correction is needed. Darren, I was thinking about this a little more think about the language you use explaining how elders are held to a higher standard doctrinally speaking. Our mission is to make disciples who are marked by the presence of God in order to leave a lasting mark. He has people who fund his life so no donations are used for that purpose and so he can fully focus on running the mission.. do you have knowledges that Todd is spending money frivolously? Youve been a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and how many times have you talked to each elder? Or, in this case, you live on as Elder Emeritus! A former member of Shekinah Church, who lost a lawsuit against Shinn in which she alleged he swindled her out of $4 million, has issued a dire warning for those who have been lured into the. By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. Mickey makes it sound like the decision for Todd to resign was something weve arrived at due to events. (although my personal view is a modest lifestyle is best for all, and all things considered,). Women have gotten to the point where they thing their poop doesnt stink lately. Synopsis of the case is as follows. We don't remove someone's formal status as a member for struggling with sin - whether that sin is pride, materialism, or sexual sin. There is a filthy rich entrepreneur whose name is Todd Wagner. Watermark is very good at many things but also very bad at a few. Thats not true. It is kindness that brings people to repentance. Elder Mickey Friedrich then urged the church not to try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong. (note spelling a/e) I have met small groups all over the Dallas area of cast aside individuals who bonded over the abuse they experienced while attending this organization. Remember how CJ wrote a book on humility and then some of the staff said he was anything but and instead was quite controlling. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Both of these practices are, in my opinion, unhealthy. And why? They did create it. I started to plan how to move near Plano so I could attend Watermark Plano. The reason for this is because, as an elder, he will be responsible for teaching others. Amy Smith of the blog Watchkeep has documented her experience there, and it bears much of the hallmarks of a cult. Spiritual authority has nothing to do with title, education, or rhetorical ability (2 Cor 10-13). Many won't perform gay marriage. He added that he and Wagner are good and there is no anger, malice, or slander between them. Just study what a grandiose narcissist is and you will see why. I know I often do. Evangelical Church. Its extremely worrisome that they feel they have to hide and be afraid of what Watermark Church may say or do in response to them telling the truth about their abuse. if servant leadership plus Jesus Christ means anything, it logically using financial means to serve others. John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander. It is the Lord Jesus who is in control after all folks. Does God want everyone to be broke? Thats what they all seem to do. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of "Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse" by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. I dont know if I am over-reacting when Todd made a off the cuff remark about taking his wife some where last week where she could be warm. A calendar of future events, classes, Bible studies, and programs happening with Watermark Community Church. Embattled Dallas megachurch Senior Pastor Todd Wagner has resigned from his position after accusations of spiritual abuse led elders to question his leadership of Watermark Community Church. Related Pages. What does being your authentic self really mean, in the context of community groups? have caused them to *go astray,*. ingratiating and wheedling in a way Watermark Churchs membership process first requires that you sign themembership covenant, which oddly enough, you can do online. If you dont fill out the form you can leave easy if your just quiet. a lavish lifestyle is contrary to everything Jesus stood for if Jesus still matters, and if anyone actually remembers. +++++++++++++++++. I would be ok disclosing financial information to my community group. I believe this man would help many, I can say that without shadow of doubt. https://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html, Jer 50:6 I went through the Re:Engage program twice early in its development. They were not giving Him a standing ovation. While he was pastor at another church in Dallas he followed this same doctrine of sin and follower of Jesus Christ. Log In. I didnt feel the spirit when I heard him. If youre short on time, start at 27 minutes when the speakers starts explaining why people think Watermark is a cult. The Asbury Revival Is Over. We also get your email address to automatically create an account for you in our website. This would be Cabo and in the middle of the worst weather tragedies that Dallas has seen in decades. Todd gave me support and comfort during a rough time in my life, and I will be FOREVER grateful. Im also a bit a sad with respond of David (elder) who is in the leadership role to show the love with staring at the congregation (may be because of challenges). She has never seriously considered getting involved with the church beyond that, but has expressed to me that it is quite difficult to actually get connected at Watermark Church because everything is centered around MEMBERSHIP and COMMUNITY GROUPS and you cant have one without the other. We have ministry partners with boots on the ground, helping to love and serve others by meeting their immediate physical and spiritual needs. What a strange and often sad world much of American white evangelicalism has become. God has allowed the clarity and conviction that we need, that I need, to serve well in this role to dry up, Wagner said. TWW last left Wagner on leave due to pride in Todd Wagner, the Controversial Pastor of Watermark Church, Steps Away *for a Season. I am certainly not an atheist and am a regular church attender. I know that there are many different types of church governance. Watermark Church is certainly not alone in taking a stance against homosexuality. I covered this in my previous post, When Is a Church Member Fair Game, referencing a case of church discipline that Watermark carried out publicly against one of its members. Thanks for the reply. It was amazing for marriages and community within marriage. Ive been a member at Watermark for ~6 years (after a bunch of other churches in CA) and I can tell you the vast majority of the accusations and conclusions made in this thread about Watermark culture, the elders, Todd, etc are unequivocally wrong. Im with Scotty and Andy Wilson. Gateway Church. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about Having said that,Read more . Maybe because I have not had a negative experience with elder rule I do not see it as a problem. The preacher they were to install couldnt preach well. He finally quit when he decided to switch jobs and was reprimanded for not getting the groups permission. Before I get into the first story, I want to lay some groundwork to help my readers understand how the structure of community groups at Watermark Church works. Hi. Todd could use he had no use for you. They are full-blown corporate performance reviews, except about twice as long as any Ive filled out. its raw observation on your part you arent being led at all. No its not. Why wouldnt the devil try to tempt and discredit a Christian leader whos been respected by so many and positively influenced so many? Regardless Lords will be done Prov 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. People are insecure, confused, listen to gossip,Read more . Watermark Church Lawsuit. Andrew Bhatia Just because you havent personally experienced or have personal knowledge of these things happening does NOT mean they didnt happen to someone else. no one was threatening him he deliberately chose to live as the 1%, say yes & accept it, move in and make it his home. Those who love control and achievement thrive very well there = works. While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. The judge in the case ruled for church arbitration, which for Scientologists and former Scientologists means something completely different than the average person. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about. At the beginning of each year our membership goes to zero. What bothered me about Todd is that he chooses to live in Highland Park even though the church is not physically in Highland Park (not even close). -, You write about the website, No Eden Elsewhere. He didnt even buy the house, it was gifted by a member years ago. 1 Pet 2:25 Wow! So you either choose to remain by completing the 4b questionnaire or you are no longer a member, [] a greatexample of unsafe community groups which verge on cults. He springs off of that definition into how true followers of Jesus might be considered a Jesus-cult and how is that a bad thing? If you were not From Highland Park or University Park Todd Had no use for you. He can be only the center ofRead more . that is, if we keep Jesus Christ as part of the equation, with an understanding that more is incumbent on leaders than on others. So you think women are getting a little uppity and having ideas above their station?. What you need to know about Church Membership Covenants., The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, The Aftermath Part II: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Family Ties: How Watermark Community Church is Alienating Families. We've put together a list of some ways . I highly recommend that you watch the video, because if you watch it with just the tiniest bit of scrutiny, you will notice Todd Wagner work some word-magic here. According to a report by National Public Radio, the Catholic Church has paid more than $3 billion in child sexual abuse lawsuit settlements in America alone. In my opinion, its best to have the teaching statement serve as the unifying statement that covers both members and elders, so that those who attend and who are working through their beliefs dont prematurely sign a membership covenant that in reality places them under the pastoral authority of elders who adhere to the teaching statement. Mind Games The Bizarre & Controling Culture of TODD WAGNER SURELY LED ALOT OF PEOPLE TO CHRIST. Regardless I loved your passion and pray that Holy Spirit would cover you and lead you in the area that needs correction. the equity in a $million+ home can be invested to provide hot meals, warm beds, jobs, training, and more for years. Confession, of course! it simply looks very bad. The reengage curriculum and groups were excellent! If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. A pastor or elder does not automatically have spiritual authority due to his position in a church. Yeah, I glanced at it. Demands full disclosure of finances in church groups, but having a hard time finding his. You are right, being up front about it is important. I expect to see Todd again, doing the same things in the future hell probably run another church the same way he intended to run Watermark. Before coming to Watermark, I never knew the Bible could be applied to my life. Over the years, Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse published on a blog called No Eden Elsewhere. Products. He found my blog while researching the similarities between Scientology and Watermark Church. Not Todds decision but good try on the poor stewardship bit. i felt like i was watching and listening to animated cardboard characters. Jackson Elliott contributed to this report. Sure, lets not address anything that is rumored to be strange about Watermark and say that Jesus sounded cultish. I canRead more , I can tell you that I know Todd Wagner personally over 20 years ago. WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. As for the doctrinal statement issue, I see what you are saying. Watermark Community Church is an elder-led congregation. Its all a show for people to be conned into thinking your being godly. I asked Susan if she wouldnt mind answering a few questions for this post, which she was happy to do. agreed. Elder and staff member David Leventhal stepped down in late March, citing "an erosion of trust" in Wagner's ability to lead. Reminds me exactly like Steven Furtick and many other pastors. I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. Visit us at 9:30 or 11:00 am CST on Sunday . This was the same concept as we moved on to adult Sunday school. OK. It also means sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group. Hope it works out I know God has you in his hands and it will. In principle it was excellent. If you call Christ a savior then learn to make Him Our post-modern tendency is to use culture as a reference point, not the Bible. I came to watermark on a visit with my sons family. Dismiss the abuse of others how did you come to that conclusion? Dont need the large meetings with rock music and parking headaches and entertainers with impulse control issues claiming its the Holy Spirit in them. He began to consider that he was in a cult. In these community groups you are enmeshing your entire life into the church. Friends, theres a lot of speculation here. Ashley Ruiz alleges in a lawsuit that a member of the International Churches of Christ sexually molested her when she was . That is one huge cult. seems to me median, or less, is reasonable (relative to the community where the church exists). like hes a programmed automaton. What do you mean exactly by re-victimization. and oversee the spiritual interests of our church body. To demand that a victim produce evidence is a form of revictimization. I think I have a pdf copy of a ten year old one. I also know of churches that do not use this model that are both healthy and unhealthy. The guy has an ad that comes on YouTube where he goes through how his org is run. Read More. And, have peace and unity. The Christian Post's Leonardo Blair wrote an eyeopening post titled Dallas megachurch pastor who confessed to sin of pride resigns. indoor plumbing plumbing would be a luxury. Susan felt it was ironic that I had made a comparison between Scientology and Watermark Church, because she said those same comparisons helped her realize that she was not in a healthy church. to verify your name calling., Which of the victims of He said at the time that he was not guilty of disqualifying sin like sexual immorality, financial misconduct, or foul languagesomething Wagner reiterated when he announced his resignation. Also, any comments with profanity, name-calling, and/or a nasty tone will be deleted. May we bear one anothers confessions with grace and mercy. I assured those who wanted to speak out with their stories that I would not identify them or use any details in my post that could be used to identify them. When you login first time using a Social Login button, we collect your account public profile information shared by Social Login provider, based on your privacy settings. Still havent found a church I like since. Which by the way, most of north Dallas (including Lake Highlands) has experienced the same level of appreciation. After hearing Todds sermon, I left the building thinking pride comes before the fall will be evidenced in that man someday. So recent events are unsurprising to me. Problem with a church goers these days is (they are simply judgmental- half the time without any knowledge or discernment. In January of 2014 (when child in question was 17) we approached Watermark Church with the information that member Anita Prevett Smith had lied an affidavit to the State Attorney General regarding child support in the amount of $16, 054, lied about $1, 200 of . the family in a 1970s 2,100 sf home of their own in the suburbs may feel they have the short end of the stick, and see the family in the newer 3,400 sf home as having amazing luxuries. It is Not referenced as a legal tool which may be weaponized against anyone they desire to control or experiment on. Im heart broke and still excited to see what Lord and how He is going to carry out this. One person complained that her husband was forced to tell his community group how much he made and to account for how he spent his money. True humility is replaced with a very shallow and false one and so they humble brag about how big a crowd they can draw. Not now. Watermark might want the groups to be run a certain way, but that doesnt mean the group has to follow the rules. Which still seems excessive for a follower of Jesus. Third, Todd said Christians should live their lives in a way that looks radical or extreme to other people, and Watermark is the best at it, because most churches arent very radical! Worth 1-2 million. If you dont want to share about your finances you dont have to. He could have thanked his friend for his generosity, and politely declined the gift, suggesting he would love for the proceeds from the resale of the house be donated to a local homeless charity instead. These resources are found in Appendix V and Appendix VI at the end of this case study and in the clarifications given by Watermark in the section Watermark's Response to the Nation. Its gotten popular which makes me suspect. This case was filed in Dallas County Texas Courts, Dallas County Texas Courts At Law located in Dallas, Texas. The teaching statement wasnt explained to me in the membership process. Having community is not the issue its how Watermark DEFINES community. For every story that IRead more . If the leaders deem you unworthy of their support due to pride or sin struggle reasons, they will absolutely unequivocally unabashedly and with zero conscience or compassion, write you off. If your Parents were not rich and someone. Perhaps its appropriate for an elder who retired after many years of exemplary service and is available on occasion to give counsel. If youd like a suggestion for a charity outside of our church well gladly help you. They dont even take a collection in church! Outsourced: How Watermark Community Church Fails in Caring for Its Members, The Spin Cycle Watermark Community Church Members Unlikely to Ever Know the Truth Behind Resignations, Before You Sign: What You Need to Know About Membership Covenants, Making the Cut What Does It REALLY Take to Become a Member at Watermark Community Church, Dallas Megachurch Pastor Todd Wagner Resigns, Cites Pride as the Reason, https://www.watermark.org/about/governance, OUR COMMUNITY SERIES: Being Lonely in a Group of People | To Love, Honor and Vacuum, Leaders trying to drain members in order to live exorbitant lives. Spirit would cover you and lead you in the context of community groups think I have not had negative! Went through the Re: Engage program twice early in its development dismiss the abuse of others did... Of a cult good and there is a modest lifestyle is contrary to everything Jesus stood for Jesus! Move near Plano so I could attend Watermark Plano who are marked by the presence God... 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